How To Scale Profitably: eCommerce Marketing in 2024 | #272 Wesley Hartley

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Claus Lauter [00:00:00]:
This is episode two seven two of the ecommerce Coffee Break podcast. Today, we want to find out how ecommerce performance and marketing strategies can help you to achieve profitable scale in 2024. With me on the show, I have Wesley Hartley. He is the chief revenue officer at Leaf.fm. So let's dive right into it.

Claus Lauter [00:00:18]:
But before we get started, a big thank you to our sponsors for supporting today's episode.

Claus Lauter [00:00:22]:
Loyalty Lion is a leading loyalty platform helping Shopify brands rocket returning customers with their own loyalty programs. With Loyalty Lion, it's quick and easy to create a program that uses points and rewards to engage shoppers, secure more second purchases and drive up lifetime value. Loyalty Line has been increasing returning customer rates for thousands of Shopify stores for over ten years. Visit loyaltylion.com to find out more. Find the link in the show notes.

Claus Lauter [00:00:48]:
Have you heard about partner Hero? They're experts in support on the ecommerce industry, known for their outstanding team building skills. Their main pillars, quality people and culture makes them a great fit for your company. Learn more on partnerhero.com or click the.

Wesley Hartley [00:01:01]:
Link in the show notes this is.

Voice Over [00:01:05]:
The e commerce Coffee Break, a top rated Shopify growth podcast dedicated to shopify merchants and business owners looking to grow their online stores. Learn how to survive in the fast changing e commerce world with your host Claus Lauter, and get marketing advice you can't find on Google. Welcome to the show.

Wesley Hartley [00:01:31]:
Hello and welcome to another episode of.

Claus Lauter [00:01:32]:
The e commerce Coffee Break podcast. Today we want to talk about a massive topic and a topic that a lot of merchants and old school marketers might struggle with. We want to talk about how e commerce performance, marketing and data strategies are being used for being achievable and profitable to scale your business. So keywords there are data layer, Facebook Pixel, Google Ads, tag, Google Tag Manager, server side tracking, Google Analytics. And you might have the feeling as a online seller, you're more of a data scientist than a marketeer. So to dive into that today, I have Wesley Hartley with me. He's the chief revenue officer at Leaf FM. He is a copywriter and technologist with over 15 years of experience in social and vc investment.

Claus Lauter [00:02:13]:
He's also the mastermind behind Leaf's growth platform and Leaf's full funnel performance marketing methodology. So let's dive right into it. Hi Wesley, how are you today?

Wesley Hartley [00:02:22]:
I'm good, thank you. Thanks for having me on doing marketing.

Claus Lauter [00:02:25]:
Nowadays it's more a technology job than being a creative job. Keyword there, and it comes from every possible side, is data. Data from your perspective, where has marketing changed to, compared to like five or ten years ago?

Wesley Hartley [00:02:39]:
When I first got into this space with Leaf, the company that I run with some of my business partners, we were a music technology company. We had an app called Leaf Music. We had no experience in marketing and very little budget, and there was only five of us in the company. We needed a way to acquire customers and acquire users of our app. So naturally gravitated towards Facebook ads. And at the time, Facebook ads was very good value for money. You could test a lot of creatives. There were very, very granular targeting options and you had a lot of control over that targeting.

Wesley Hartley [00:03:18]:
And so at the time, we developed something called the one pound test. And we could, because we were advertising our music app in places like Latin America, which was traditionally cheaper to advertise in than say the US or Scandinavia or the UK, we could get a lot of bang for our book and test lots of audiences, interest based audiences, lookalike based audiences. You could even at that point go into a Facebook page and look at the insights, get very, very granular insights of the people that were following you on Facebook. And it would give you link at the time, affinity, I think they used to call it affinity kind of behaviors and interest. So you could see, oh, the people that like our page are 234% more likely to like this page and this interest and this behavior. So you could build up a profile on mass and you could do really granular interest based targeting, and we could even pull the performance of interest through the API. We could put 200 interests in one ad set inside Facebook and then pull out the performance of that interest to see how many ad pin stores we've got. Long story short, we found out music's where startups go to die.

Wesley Hartley [00:04:32]:
But in doing what we've done with marketing and creating this kind of test and learn at scale. So instead of a b testing, I would say it was kind of triple z testing. We developed that kind of methodology. And fast forward a few years to now, granular targeting has completely disappeared and it's going down the plug hole. You've got things like Pmax on Google where you are just giving a handful of signals to the algorithm, and then you've got now advantage plus, which is kind of like the Pmax for meta. And again, it's very broad. You can basically tell it, these are my existing customers, and you can just tell it how much to spend on your existing customers versus new customers. But there's no real guiding of the target in there.

Wesley Hartley [00:05:18]:
And even when you have an interest based ad set on meta. Now in most ad accounts that we're seeing expansion, targeting, expansion is on by default. So now we've gone from a place where you had a lot of data and you had a lot of control over targeting to we are well past peak marketing data, we're past the summit and we're going rapidly down the other side with the rollout of iOS 14, a lot of the apple privacy restrictions and some stuff around GDPR and some further restrictions being rolled out by the EU and then state by state in the US. So I think you've got to take the algorithm by the hand a little bit more now, instead of being over segmenting your targeting, you've got to be okay with having broad targeting and just being very specific with your creative, especially on meta. Your creative has really got to take the algorithm by the hand and get people to self select so that Facebook meta knows what is in this image, it knows what the product is and it knows who you are aiming it at. You've given it all the right signals. And then when people see that in their feed, they instantly know, yes, this is a product for me, or no, this is not a product for me. And you want that kind of almost a binary reaction from your audience.

Wesley Hartley [00:06:40]:
So then the algorithm knows, okay, I won't serve it to those people. None of those types of profiles are interacting or engaging anyway, but these people aren't. So that's fundamentally altered the way that we do marketing now, slightly different on Google than it is to say meta or TikTok and other social channels. But by and large, yeah, we get less data and we've got less control over targeting. So we're kind of going back to where all marketing really start, which is kind of know your customer and know who you are aiming it at and make sure that that message and that creative and your product is really, really geared for a very specific customer.

Claus Lauter [00:07:18]:
Yeah, I remember the golden times, 2015, 2016, somewhere around that time span where the targeting was so great. That was really a dream for every marketer out there. And then sort of from there it went downhill. And it is going to continue a little bit downhill because next year the third party tracking will fall away. So things will become even more difficult. Now, if you're a marketer right now, you should have an omnichannel cross channel marketing strategy so that you are present in every possible channel. Tell me a little bit more on how you would structure a funnel nowadays.

Wesley Hartley [00:07:51]:
Yeah, so it's slightly different on each channel, but by and know most of the media spend that we're handling is predominantly still spent on meta and Google. Once you start to add in, I'm not going to talk about email because we don't really do email. We collaborate with the brands that do email. But generally speaking, the more channels we have and the less attribution we have, we're getting a situation where one plus one equals three. And a lot of that is because lots of brands and agencies are all wanting to make their channels look like they're performing very well so they can justify fees or justify budgets and justify your jobs. We have a situation where we might do an audit for a brand, say, and we will look at the way that their meta and Google Ad accounts are structured and the way the funnels are structured. And on Google you might have an attribution window. The agency might have put an attribution window of something like 45 days or 60 days for a product where the average order value is 25 pounds, where 98% of those purchases happen within 24 hours.

Wesley Hartley [00:09:02]:
People click on an ad, go to the site and say, yeah, it's only 25 quid, I'll buy that. There's zero consideration time. And what that does is just massively increase the attribution overlap with another channel. And then so meta, you might be spending 200,000 pounds a month on meta, you might be spending 50,000 pounds a month on Google. But because Google's got this 90 day attribution window, it is mopping up a lot of the conversions that are actually being driven by meta. And Meta's got a seven day window. So the way that we build funnels now on each channel would be to a reduce that attribution overlap. So we make sure on say, meta we would have top, middle and bottom of funnel, top new to brand audiences, never visited your website, never interacted with your brand on social media before.

Wesley Hartley [00:09:56]:
So you're controlling your spend through that exclusion targeting just as much as the inclusion targeting against new to brand audiences. And then you can really control your creatives and your budget against those new to brand audiences. At the middle of funnel, people varies from company to company. But middle of funnel for us would still be new to brand audiences. But they are second touch. They've interacted with the brand in some way, they've had some kind of education. And so we are not educating them about the brand at that point. We are just reminding them of their reasons to believe in the brand, but it becomes more product focused.

Wesley Hartley [00:10:32]:
Bottom of funnel, still new to brand, but retargeting. So warm and hot audiences, so retargeting web visitors who've had a quick look and bounced or hot audiences been to the website and they have added something to cart or they have viewed a particular product. At that point we can start getting more personalized with the retargeting and personalized with the messaging through product know, dynamic product ads and things like that on meta, similar stuff on Google. And you can start retargeting people with the very specific make and model and size and color of product that they've interacted with on your website. And then there's a whole separate funnel for your existing customers, people who've bought x but not bought x. So upsell, cross sell opportunities, churn risk, people who haven't purchased for x amount of time and are at risk of churn. Or we want to kind of reignite those audiences. And then there might be something for a repeat purchase audience and maximizing a value of an audience.

Wesley Hartley [00:11:33]:
Or you might want to retarget your most valuable customers with very specific loyalty programs. So you've kind of got new to brand funnel and then you've got your existing customer funnel as well. And it's largely the same. Even though Google's search based intent, it's a different platform to meta, it's still the same. You've got your generic search based audiences on Google, so they're not searching for your brand name. You've got your separate campaigns that contain your brand name. And you could call those, some of those are going to be new to brand audiences who might have found out about you on meta and are then searching for you on Google. Or they could be existing customers who are coming back, but you would largely through inclusion and exclusion targeting, you would largely have the same funnel, but it would just be governed slightly differently because it's all about search based intent.

Wesley Hartley [00:12:23]:
And then you have things like PMax and shopping campaigns, all those campaigns, generally speaking, for our customers who are ecommerce, d to c customers that would be built around product categories or specific products and then based around margin. You want to control your budget against the products that are delivering you a volume, but b also margin and having that balance between volume and margin so you can control the profitability of your campaigns. And then as you're controlling those structures on each of these channels, you're minimizing the attribution overlap between channels. And then you don't really need to worry about attribution unless one plus one equals three. If you are seeing more revenue combined in meta and Google and email than you are seeing in the till in your first party data on your Shopify store, then you need to worry about attribution overlap. But really you should have some space, some headroom. So the revenue you're generating from Google on platform and meta, you should have some headroom there and this should be some revenue left over that can then be attributed to direct, to organic and to email. And actually all that stuff doesn't equal more than you've got in the tilt.

Wesley Hartley [00:13:40]:
And now a quick break to thank.

Claus Lauter [00:13:42]:
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Speaker C [00:14:11]:
You also get a five star support.

Claus Lauter [00:14:13]:
As shown by the customer reviews on the Shopify App Store and G two. Visit loyaltyline.com to find out more and start your loyalty journey. Find the link in the show notes.

Speaker C [00:14:23]:
As a prominent player in the ecommerce support arena, partner Herod specialize in delivering personalized customer experience solutions with a clear focus on helping you not just meet but exceed your goals and requirements. They have become experts in e commerce support. Their commitment to tailoring solutions to your unique needs ensures that your support experience is nothing short of exceptional. Partner Hero is more than a CX company. They are your partner in success. Visit their website and learn more on partnerhero.com.

Claus Lauter [00:14:50]:
Yeah, the numbers normally do not really completely add up when you look in the different reporting tools. So what kind of KPIs do you use when you go into scaling? So you find your winning campaign. And I think a lot of merchants struggle when they scale because they're looking at the wrong numbers. They start putting more budget in it and it drops or dies out or whatever. What's your strategy there? What are you looking for?

Wesley Hartley [00:15:13]:
You've got to have good foundations for scaling. You cannot scale budget on an ad account structure that is just not set up to scale. And I think people listening to this podcast have probably done bit of research. You've heard of horizontal scaling and vertical scaling. Vertical scaling would be putting all your budget and trying to scale in one channel or one campaign or one ad set or one ad. Horizontal scale would be hedging your bets and scaling across channel or across multiple campaigns within the same channel, so that you are not oversaturating the audiences within those campaigns or within that particular channel. Google, for example, you cannot invent more search volume in Google. You can only do that for your brand or do that for an entire category by spending budget in demand generation channels.

Wesley Hartley [00:16:06]:
If you are out there and you've got a very innovative product that is new to market and you are creating a new category, Google is not going to be a good channel for you. You're going to have to bid on search terms in adjacent categories. But those people aren't searching for what you offer, and it'll be very difficult to make that work. You naturally gravitate towards something like social, where you can generate that demand and you can generate that awareness and generate that demand and obviously probably got to have deep pockets for that, or you've got to have something that is affordable, mass market enough and at a price point that you can easily start getting all those initial kind of early adopter customers. But I think in terms of scaling, the really key metrics we're looking at is profitability. So a lot of kind of newbies and even some old school chief marketing officers, they will say things to us like, oh well, what's the cost per click? Or what's the click through rate on this? And it doesn't matter. It really doesn't matter. It's not linear.

Wesley Hartley [00:17:08]:
You don't have cheap cost per click, great click through rate, great cost per ad to cart, and then low cost per purchase and high return on ad spend. It doesn't work like that actually. You might be switching your spend from Facebook to Instagram and then you will get a much more expensive cost per click. I mean, we don't look at cost per click at all, but you might be getting more expensive cost per impression. We do look at cost of advertising, cpms, you might be getting much more expensive cost per outbound click. You want to look at the clicks, especially on social that go outbound, not just the clicks that stay within meta. You might get a lower click through rate because it's harder to get, it's more expensive to advertise than Instagram, it's harder to get people to click off it and leave that platform. And this is just an example, but when they do, they could be worth twice as much as a meta purchase and they might be a much higher lifetime value.

Wesley Hartley [00:18:08]:
So all these kind of metrics, they're not linear, but ultimately we would look at the profitability of a customer. So cost per purchase, how much is it costing you to acquire that purchase that customer or drive that order? What are your margins? So how much headroom have you got to play with? Tacos is a big thing. Now, I think Amazon, that phraseology is kind of leaked from Amazon into other parts of the ecosystem, which is your advertising spend as a percentage of your total net sales, or total sales or gross sales, however you want to do it. And then you can understand your margins and how much headroom you've got to play with. If you can only spend 15% of your net sales on marketing spend, then you need to be hitting a very specific cost per purchase or a return on ad spend. And if you can maintain that as you're scaling and keep your eye on that, then that's how you maintain that profitability. That doesn't take into account, that's a backwards looking metric. That doesn't take into account lifetime value.

Wesley Hartley [00:19:08]:
So actually you might be losing money on the first purchase, but because of repeat order rates, because of your lifetime value, you might be able to make your profit back on that customer within 60 days. And as a business, you might be able to manage that cash flow situation over 60 days. It might be, for some businesses shorter than that 30 days. It could be much, much longer. It could be that some well funded businesses could manage that on a, I'm thinking of far fetched, that apparently did this on a ten year basis. We've got ten years to profitability, and they were able to spend hundreds of millions acquiring customers. That probably sounds like an urban myth, but it's a very extreme example. So yeah, we're looking at profitability and what that means from a real time, backwards looking, real time, but also a forwards looking point of view as well from customer lifetime value.

Claus Lauter [00:19:59]:
Okay. Very solid insights there. I think a lot of merchants, listeners to the show, can relate to that, and that gives them a bit of a direction where to dive into in their data. Now, at Leaf FM, you definitely say you're not an agency, you're a tech company. So give me a bit of an overview, what you do, where you differentiate and who's your perfect customer.

Wesley Hartley [00:20:18]:
So yeah, Leaf FM, I wish I could kill that domain. That's a hangover from music. When we were a music company, but yeah, we've always been a product company. We built a music app. It was the top streaming app in Latin America, one of the top ten in the world. We built some marketing technology, really raw scripts that would enable us to upload lots of creative combinations of images, static images and messaging and then mine lots of different interest audiences, smash them all together in a kind of particle accelerator and then move the budget around the best performing ones. This was before campaign budget optimization in meta. So we'd already developed some marketing technology internally to help us do what we do at scale.

Wesley Hartley [00:21:04]:
Because we had no experience, we approached marketing as an engineering problem for us and a data problem to solve fast forward. We became an agency by default. Once we'd had really success with Leaf music, lots of brands started reaching out. I think one of the first brands we dealt with was Foot Asylum, which is huge national and international brand, which was fairly scary at the time. But we went in, showed them how to launch meta campaigns, how we structured our campaigns, and then how we used our technology to report on the performance of those campaigns. And then they licensed our technology for a couple of years after that. We were pretty immature at the time. We didn't have the commercial set up to go out and get a bunch of other foot asylums.

Wesley Hartley [00:21:49]:
We kind of didn't know what to do with this brand that we had at the time. But we learned a lot and we learned a lot about what omnichannel marketing looks like at scale, performance at scale for a huge company like that, and what kind of metrics and reporting challenges they had. And so we have got our own data warehousing facility, data unification. Obviously different platforms call things different things. So Shopify might call it an order, Google Analytics calls it a transaction and Facebook calls it a purchase. We've got to unify all that data. So we've built a schema that works with Shopify or WordPress or Facebook or Google, and it can just unify all that data. And then we've got a visualization platform called Leaf grow that we've used internally for a couple of years that helps us make much smarter decisions about ad spend allocation.

Wesley Hartley [00:22:43]:
And it's a post attribution platform we're not bothered about. Last click and GA data for us is just becoming relatively redundant. We try to use as little of Google Analytics as possible. We're just interested in first party data, money in, money out. What products are we advertising, how much are we spending against these particular products? And are we seeing sales of those products, profitable sales of those products against the ad spend that we are pushing against them? And that's how we are setting ourselves up for the future. I think we have our own technology. There's a couple of similar platforms out there. I think ours is a little bit more bespoke.

Wesley Hartley [00:23:24]:
So as a company we can tailor the reporting platform to you so it does first party revenue and customer reporting from say, shopify. We've got channel reporting from Amazon, say Google, TikTok and Meta. And we're very opinionated. We break down the funnels and present what the performance of those funnels on the channels. We've got cohort analysis, predictive forecasting and then creative performance reporting as well. I think one of the big usps for us as an inverted comm, as an agency is that we do all the conversion tracking and we've got our own technology for doing all the conversion tracking. So if you cannot control the signal and you cannot control conversion tracking, you don't have a good handle on that. We haven't met another performance agency that knows how to do this.

Wesley Hartley [00:24:11]:
They just click a button in Shopify and turn on server side tracking. And turn on conversion tracking. That conversion tracking is very volatile. It will be double counting purchases just because you've added an app to your checkout. It will be triple counting add to cart. It will be not passing the right product parameters so that you can't do a personalized retargeting. And most agencies, performance agencies have no clue how to do this because in order to be able to do this stuff, you need software engineers who are processing engineering specialists. So you don't want to get web developers to do conversion tracking.

Wesley Hartley [00:24:51]:
That would be like getting a plumber to do your electrics in your house. And yeah, they're handy, right? And they could probably give it a go, but chances are your electrics are going to blow at some point. And so we handle all that signal stuff right at the start. And we've got some technology called Connect that does proper server side tracking through a data layer. A data layer means that you are triggering events from a data layer instead of off the UI of your website, which is very volatile. And a web developer can completely remove all your tracking of your key events on a simple UI update. And we are just making a more robust solution that gives you more abundant data. It's more privacy secure, it's more stable, which means you've got less interruptions and you've got more efficiency.

Wesley Hartley [00:25:40]:
That signal is much more efficient going to the ad accounts. We think billions of dollars a year are wasted in just poor signal and poor connection between your store and the advertising platforms.

Claus Lauter [00:25:53]:
Okay, give me a quick overview of the onboarding process for new clients and about your pricing structure. How does that work?

Wesley Hartley [00:26:01]:
A lot of it is automated. We developed a little AI years ago actually, so we would put your email address and your company name in there. And then it would automatically create all the shared folders that we need in our platform so that you can drop your assets into it. It would have an onboarding guide that emails all the people in the client's organization. It would automatically create the client profile in our leaf grow platform. And all that stuff, all that data engineering stuff took us ages to do, but that's largely automated. Once we have a customer, they've signed off and we're onboarding them. And there's generally a kickoff call.

Wesley Hartley [00:26:40]:
Relationships are really important. We want to know pet peeves, things that they really loved about their previous agency or internal team, what they really liked and what they really hated. That's been a bit of a game changer. And then, yeah, a kickoff call with everybody to introduce them. And then we have separate calls with all the various teams that are going to be working with the client. So when we work with a client, we don't have one account manager because if we're managing all your data, all your conversion tracking, we've got to have our data services team plugged into your ECom or your web development team. We need our performance team plugged into your ecom and your internal brand and marketing teams. We've got our creative studio that again, are going to be plugged into your brand, Ecom and marketing teams.

Wesley Hartley [00:27:26]:
And then we might have our web development. We might be building and maintaining your shopify store. And again, they will be plugged in. So there could be a team of 16 people from leaf working with your company on a daily basis. So we have slack channels set up for each of those teams, and each of those teams have a point of contact. So you might be dealing with just four people from each of those teams, but they've got an entire set of teams behind them to keep it kind of streamlined for the client. But, yeah, we're very hands on. And I think what we've noticed from clients over the years is that they really want an opinion.

Wesley Hartley [00:28:01]:
They want somebody to have an opinion, and they want somebody to tell them what they should do. And they want to have the confidence in a company that can say, yeah, you deal with hundreds of brands, you've seen this stuff all the time. What do you think we should do in terms of discount strategy or channel? Where should we put our spend? What do you think we should do with our website? Really? We end up being a really core part of how they run their business.

Claus Lauter [00:28:26]:
Makes perfect sense. And it has become incredible difficult to get all these bits and pieces together to work. And if you're a small or medium enterprise, it might be just too much for you. Before we come to the end of the coffee break today, what is one final thought that you want to leave.

Wesley Hartley [00:28:39]:
Our listeners with data strategy? Having that data warehoused, unified and presented. If you're working out of a spreadsheet and that works for you and you're a small kind of entity, good luck with that. Actually, there is a place for spreadsheets, but as you're scaling your organization, actually having a really strong foundation and making sure the validity of your data is top notch. Having a handle on signal, the signal data. So the conversion tracking data, it's really undervalued by lots of brands in terms of paying for people to look after that. But also, I think it's really underserved by the industry in general, especially the agency industry. They just don't know what they're doing. So I think have a good handle on the signal data, and that will help you structure your accounts in a way that's going to allow you to report in a smarter way.

Wesley Hartley [00:29:30]:
So if you've got good funnel structures in your ad accounts, reflect that in your reporting, you will have a much more coherent view of your data from signal into the ad account structures and then into your reporting solution. And I think spending as much time as possible getting a really strong foundation. It's more important, I would say, than the creative element. The creative element is one part of it, but without this data foundation, nothing else matters. Really.

Claus Lauter [00:29:57]:
Very true. Well, can people find out more about you guys?

Wesley Hartley [00:30:00]:
Yeah. Ww dot leafgrow IO and then, yeah, just, there's a contact form on there if you want to. We do data audits of different levels. We've got some very high level free audit stuff, but we also do data ingestation and we do some very kind of broad and deep dive audits of people's data management and data strategies. And we often present data and insights to brands that they've just never, ever seen before.

Claus Lauter [00:30:27]:
Okay, I will put the links in the show notes then. You're just one click away. Wesley, thanks so much for your time today. I think that was a very in depth overview of why data is so important and why it is so complex, and why you might have an expert on your side to help you with that. Thanks so much for the call today.

Wesley Hartley [00:30:41]:
Thanks, Klaus. Cheers.

Speaker C [00:30:43]:
Hey, Klaus here. Thanks for joining me on another episode of the e commerce Coffee Break podcast.

Claus Lauter [00:30:47]:
Before you go, I'd like to ask.

Speaker C [00:30:49]:
Two things from you. First, please help me with the algorithm so I can bring more impactful guests on the show. It will make it also easier for others to discover the podcast, simply like comment and subscribe in the app you're using to listen to the podcast, and even better if you could leave a rating. Secondly, please take a moment to check out today's episode sponsors. They play a crucial role in keeping the show in our newsletter, available to you for free. Thanks again and I'll catch you in the next episode.

Wesley Hartley [00:31:12]:
Have a good one.

Speaker C [00:31:13]:
Before you leave, don't forget to visit the sponsor of today's episode. Have you heard about partner Hero? They're experts in support on the e commerce industry, known for their outstanding team building skills. Their main pillars, quality people and culture makes them a great fit for your company. Learn more on partnerhero.com or click the.

Claus Lauter [00:31:30]:
Link in the show notes Loyalty lion is a leading loyalty platform helping Shopify brands rocket returning customers with their own loyalty programs. With Loyalty lion, it's quick and easy to create a program that uses points and rewards to engage shoppers, secure more second purchases, and drive up lifetime value. Loyalty Line has been increasing returning customer rates for thousands of Shopify stores for over ten years. Visit loyaltyline.com to find out more. Find the link in the show notes.